I don’t intend to take enough time off from my Thanksgiving break to comment thoroughly – I don’t find this discussion all that particularly interesting, but there’s plenty of chatter out there that’s started with a opening salvo from Larry Moran and critical comments by Ed Brayton. PZ Myers has another commentary worth reading, and Bora has the overview. But, in brief, I’d just like to say that I’m with M&M (Moran and Myers) too.
Personally, I don’t get the fuss. While Larry’s comments may be a bit abrasive, he makes sense – as a scientist, I work under the assumption that no God (or fairies, or gnomes, etc.) is interferring in my cell culture or biochemical experiments. For that matter, I have no reason to think that a God is involved in anything in this Universe. All I see is the assertions of the superstitious.
Furthermore, Larry, PZ, and others are right – we should be demanding a level of competency in our students. With regards to the culture wars, that means we either weed out or re-educate creationists pursuing careers in biology, geology and cosmology. We should also be emphasizing “informed skepticism,” or the ability to recognize bogus claims that are based on scant or nonexistent evidence.
The theistic evolutionists, while largely correct on the science, still cling to the idea of a personal God – an idea that is incongruent with the heuristics and assumptions associated with the philosophy of science. It just doesn’t make sense to accept supernaturalism some of the time, and naturalism the rest of the time (or vice versa).
This criticism means little for non-scientists, as they’re entitled to their superstitions and ignorance. Do I want to make war on their views? Yes, in the sense that I want to help educate the public on science, and in a sense, science education makes war on theism. I don’t apologize for that. Does it make me militantly atheistic though? No – I’m just fulfulling my role in society as a scientist.
I’m probably on PZ’s side, but as far over on that side. I do hope we can all work together on values we share, such as supporting science and battling theocracy. It seems to me the sentiment tha Dawkins is damaging the cause of science is a “sit down, shut up and enjoy your seat in the back of the bus” argument. It is a “big tent” appeal of the sort we mock in the Creationists.
The remnant of belief clung to by Brayton, Wilkins and Lynch, and the lengths they will go to in order to cling to it is pretty sad. My impression is that they really want to believe, and would if they could rationally justify it. Wilkins and Lynch are philosophers, it is sad to see the weakness of the arguments they can offer in defense of their desire to believe.
By: ivy privy on November 25, 2006
at 5:55 pm
I also agree with PZ’a argument in that if the problem is religious people scream in terror at the mere mention of atheism, so much so that they are willing to abandon science, then the solution is not to tell Dawkins to shut up, but to address the root cause; the irrational demonization of atheists and atheism by religious people.
By: ivy privy on November 25, 2006
at 5:58 pm
No matter which side you take, some people are more tactful than others about asserting their views. Moran seems to be quite inflammatory. He can’t spell well, either.
By: ivy privy on November 28, 2006
at 12:07 pm
Yes, the inflammatory nature of some comments (Moran’s especially, and Myers’ as well) is a real shame. Alas…
By: Dan on November 28, 2006
at 12:46 pm
And again, while Larry may be quite inflammatory, he makes a good point on the topic of Neil deGrasse Tyson and Richard Dawkins:
And on whether Dawkins is being “insensitive” towards religion – that’s nonsense. I’ve listened to him on radio and TV, and he’s usually one of the most calm, rational, and polite men around. It’s just that his views are honest, straightforward, and starkly contrasting with theism. If that’s insensitive, then reality must be pretty cruel to Dawkins’ critics.
By: Dan on November 28, 2006
at 9:12 pm
In this thread at The Daily Transcript, Alex Palazzo states that Dawkins is “losing ground” with respect to tolerance for atheists. Someone points out, losing ground relative to what? There’s plenty of research to show that the status of atheists is low and has been low for a long time. I’m talking about the masses, “red state America”, not the comfy ultra-liberal ivory tower we inhabit. Over at Dispatches from the Culture Wars, Ed Brayton points out an instance of Thomas Jefferson using “atheist” as a slur against Calvin. Jefferson was about as enlightened as anybody alive at the time, but there it is.
I have debated “coming out” as an atheist to my family and friends in my annual holiday letter. I probably won’t though, because many of my family and friends know already, those who don’t are the older generation who shall soon find out for themselves whether there is life after death, and because of the tradition of keeping such communications on the lighter side.
By: ivy privy on November 28, 2006
at 10:16 pm
Yeah, I think Alex slipped up on that one. Clearly, he’s talking about his impression, which may or may not be correct. I don’t know – on the question of science teaching in public schools, I agree that making it a theism vs. atheism war doesn’t help, but I don’t think it hurts either. But then again, I (we?) are biased in favor of Dawkins, and I don’t have any hard data to back up my impressions either.
I don’t think I really care, either – I’ll call it as I see it, and I see theism as a superstition.
By: Dan on November 28, 2006
at 11:28 pm
Jason Rosenhouse has another great run-down of the Moran/Myers-Brayton scuffle on his EvolutionBlog, that nicely puts Ed’s comments into perspective.
By: Dan on November 30, 2006
at 10:40 am
I’ve been checking that Daily Transcript thread for several days now. Alex didn’t even attempt a reply. I’ll take that as a success.
By: ivy privy on December 1, 2006
at 5:03 pm
This is pretty ridiculous: Chris of the Mixing Memory blog rails at Dawkins, Myers, etc for speaking against religion, claiming that 1) they are confusing popular religion with sophisticated theology and 2) They don’t know anything about sophisticated theology, althogh Chris himself begs off being able to refute them because, “I’m not going to get into a long theological discussion, because it’s not something I’m an expert in…”
Earlier in the same thread, Chris said, “Let me put it this way. My view is that you can think whatever the hell you like about religion, but if you don’t know what you’re talking about (and I’ve yet to meet a Dawkinsian rationalist who does), you’d do well to keep your mouth shut about it.”
He doesn’t seem to meet his own criteria. What a hypocrite.
By: ivy privy on December 6, 2006
at 1:37 pm
Yeah, I noticed that discussion yesterday evening… and two commenters did a particularly good job of calling Chris on his B.S.:
Richard said:
And PZ himself:
With arguments like that, how on Earth can anyone see PZ as anything but lucid and rational? I, too, understand that he may upset those with deeply-held superstitions, but that’s their problem, not his.
By: Dan on December 6, 2006
at 1:47 pm